If only discepline wasnt being made "illegal" - look at the olden days, when the cane was in school, and parents were awful strict. Kids grew up to be respectable, law-abiding people. Look at it nowadays. No discepline, parents afraid to discepline because their kids threaten to report them (honestly, it has happened). Kids think they can get away with anything, and the law is actually allowing them to.
A couple of things to keep in mind though, if you look at the most violent prone societies in the world ... they also tend to be the punitive !.
Note how capital punishment hasn't reduced lethal crimes in the US. What does seem to happen though, a person, once cornered, knowing what the likely punishment is going to be, go to great lengths to escape that result. Such as extremely forceful responses, no witnesses etc.
I can remember from when i was a high school, our placements were based on a geographical distribution an was quite stupid too. But i was lucky enough to go to this place that was basically a dumping ground. Anyone that was uncontrollable at another school was transfered to us. So it became a somewhat "mixed" population.
All the "heavies" as such, saw punishment as a kind of badge of status. Weird i know, but then they were a weird bunch. Mostly seriously disturbed of course. I can remember talking to an old mate of mine recently on all that, and they mentioned something interesting.
He reckoned that what lay behind it was that they had been seriously humiliated infont of their own peers and others ... such as teachers etc, as a means of control. But as they were at a developmental stage, they didn't really understand the purpose. But they did react in an detrimentally emotive way, due to the perception of having been humiliated. That is, at a stage were all the hormons were starting to kickin, they felt their maleness was being taken away from them ... result , extreme defensive aggression, (talking an all male environment) ... and it was that experience of humiliation that caused them to go , in a very real way, into a kind of disturbed insanity that found an expression through violence. And an almost manic need to prove to other people that they could "take anything" so to speak.
Considering that they were kids at the time (14 - 18 years), and were in a developmental stage, as mentioned ... i don't think the same rules of responsibility could be applied in the same fashion as it would be expected of an older person... and expected to work.
Mind you, all the rules and threats etc, worked on me and a whole lot of other people. But then we were just ordinary bods who were there due to a stupid geographical demarcation.
But ... what is the alternative ... just because the answer is a difficult one, doesn't mean the former should be some form of default. At least societies that experience low incidences along these lines ... maybe they would be worthy of learning from. Such as tribal communities and the like. What is it about Hawian families that is different
The reasoning behind it is just awful. "Who's to say who's a criminal? That guy who stole your car stereo - did he do it out of spite or was he despirate? You keeping it from him was criminal". Those were the actual words of a criminal physcologist.
hmmmm, i think the physiologist may have been trying to express the principle of the greater social responsibility. Such as, if a society implements certain structures, or institutionalised "norms", ones that are known to have a certain percentile of destructive impact ... known through observation over long periods of time, then doesn't the "intent" rest with that society, if there allowed to continue, and so rests the ultimate fault. It's not a new idea, but one that the corporate world really doesn't want to hear about. Not having seen/heard the particular quote you mention, i can't be really sure there, but i would suspect thats what they may have been trying to say. Though, probably just not very efficiently
"Human rights" is now "criminal rights". The rights of the victim are thrown away because its "unfair on the criminal as there must be a reason he/she did what he/she did.".
In Aus, and i would expect the same applied in the UK, ... if you wake in the night and find a burglar in your house ... and you attack them ... you can be charged with assault. And if you were to grab a weapon, a person had better think of a good story quick.
Sounds a bit ridiculous , does it not. Untill you consider that a person could be quite easily "set up" to take a fall by the manipulation of a scenario like that. As a species, we really are that devious.
It's no good telling people to be nice -OR ELSE! which is what discipline of that sort is.
hmmmmm, well, That is hitting the nail on the head...
Can it be imagined, say, ... the formation of the "Anti-Hate Squad" , who's moto is "We Hate Hate" --- and if you lot don't start being nice ... were gunna come round to your houses, and pull all ya $#oody arms off
Thats a quote from the Aunty Jack Show, used to be on TV over here a long time back ... twas a very funny show.
edited: tue 02/05/2006: just a couple of clarification edits.
Humpty Dumpty Was Pushed !