Microsoft should be sued for what they say about Linux

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Postby wumessiah » Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:59 pm

Wow, Take it easy pal. While I see where your coming from (and partially agree with the G-names) I thnk your being a tad bit hard on these guys. Having said that, can I be the first to totally agree with the last line on the above mentioned post:

"Don't say you dont want Laymen to use your system." I agree with that because its the Laymen who buy into the crap about Linux not being a total system, or Microsoft being superiour. You see, if Microsoft is guilty of all the crap they do they are also guilty of putting a desktop on almost every household in the world since the introduction of Windows 95. Computers and Operating Systems have taken a new limelight since the last decade and we should realise that Microsoft has reached a larger audience because their system design is more user friendly and Laymen oriented. While I agree Microsoft has several flaws in its security, we should not fight fire with fire, but rather give the people what they want - a Layman friendly operating environment with features such as Zero click installs, interoperability with more 3rd party ISV's, and seriously find a new prefix for our application names other than G****, because the english language only has so many letters that we can add after G before we start getting into the number scheme and really lose hope of reaching the world.

Lets all take an initiative to better the Linux environment, and stop worrying about what Microsoft has to say about us. Afterall, if Microsoft's so confident about their system, why even dream of comparing to Linux and attempt to slam us? The answer is simple, Microsoft realises the recent improvements to the Linux kernel, feature rich distro's with commanlity, and improved user experiences are all eating away from what they formerly were the only ones to offer, and its hurting them! Lets keep the dream alive, and use that anger as fuel for productivity!
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Postby shifty_ben » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:27 am

In principle I agree with what you are saying, however Im not sure that Linux should be changed drastically to make it more "user-friendly" for laymen. If you look at the distributions now compared to a few years ago they are far more "user-friendly", this development is likely to continue. Im not sure Linux will ever be user friendly enough to be suitable for anyone for one simple reason, most people are used to M$, after all how many forums are there on the net where a panick stricken n00b has written that they cannot find their C: drive, have they lost all their files? Admittedly that is part of the learning curve, but not everyone is going to be willing to learn when they can use a system they are used to? Having said that tho with M$ cracking down on bootleg copies, and apparantly upping software prices far more people are going to be likely to try Linux, even if only to save themselves money. M$ may be launching ad campaigns like face the facts in an attempt to squash linux, but their pricing policies are increasingly becoming an advert of the benfits of Linux. A few of the worlds governments have now adopted opensource, its a pity the UK one hasnt but the change is gradually coming. The User Friendliness of Linux is currently at a high compared to a few years ago, and is likely to keep getting better, I still stand by my statement that most people who complain about linux not being user friendly at all are either a) misinformed and havent looked themselves b) using the wrong distro for their needs or c) under the misunderstanding that Linux is entirely CLI based.

I might be wrong but I think that you'll find the reason for a lot of programs starting with the letter G is either because they were designed to be run in Gnome, or are based on GTK, I wont deny there are exceptions from this, but the use of G is not all that different from the use of M$ in Windoze, When running a GUI you can always rename your icons to something else if it bothers you, some distros already change the names to Word processer, or money application.

We do have a lot to thank M$ for its true, Im not sure there would be quite so many computers across the world if it wasn't for them, however in the same way we wouldnt have quite a fewthings if it wasnt for the romans, but their time has passed, the same is going ot be true for M$, unless they drastically combat the rise in their prices then people are going to stop using them. Paying nearly £200 for XP to then find you need at least M$ Office to do anything is rediculous, once they realise this then they may retain their current market share for a while longer
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Postby Nigel » Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:36 am

On the G-thing... have you noticed how much software in the Windows world is now called something.NET ?

It's for the same reason - associating your product with the bandwagon of your choice ;)
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RE: Microsoft bashing

Postby nerdita1701d » Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:52 pm

I miss the good old days when the internet and computing in general was a scary, intimidating place ventured into only by nerds like me.

Everyone knows Unix based <i>anything</i> kicks MS butt. Sadly the great unwashed are only interested in playing solitaire and mailing someone in the next cube.

So long as we have a society where people use computers without knowing how they work (i.e. not knowing the difference between a bit and a byte) there will be a huge divide - Microsoft for Lusers and Unix for Users. Sadly, most people are not interested in doing and knowing more, and where ignorance is bliss, it's a folly to be wise.

I used to harp on about how awful Microsoft are, and try dogmatically to pull people over to Unix based OS. I now sit back and relax, safe in the knowledge that my OS is superior.

Lets not sink to their level, it's nasty down there - it's part of what makes us superior, guys!
My friends asked me to fix their PC. 5 hours and 20 cups of coffee later they said "How do we install MSN messenger?". Ever want to just put a machine out of it's misery and whack and insulated screwdriver in the 12v?
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RE: Microsoft bashing

Postby wumessiah » Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:18 pm

Well, I am glad to see so many people are passionate about their Linux / Unix OSes. I definetly agree that Microsoft will need to reconsider dropping their prices if they want to remain on top of that ladder, but the part that doesn't make sense to me is why they would want to raise their prices? I remember reading a report in Time magazine many years ago (like in 1999 sometime) that Microsoft makes more money from pirate copies of their distro than legal. This is simply because third party ISVs (all your Symantecs, Zonealarms, and just about anyone that makes commercial products for the Windows OS) would be paying royalty to Microsoft for distributing their application. As a result, the more desktops out there (legal or illegal copies) the more microsoft will earn in royalties. I guess the model must have changed drastically since '99 if they are yet again increasing their bounty?

You know, I have another thought about user friendliness. If the 3rd party ISV's would start writting apps for Linux using package manage solutions (which are clearly available in Linux (DEB, RPM, etc.), users will find the switch just that much easier. I find as a newbie that the hardest part about installing some applications I find off the web (RPM's mostly) is after installing it (which I get happy about everytime I successfully install any app in Linux - its a newbie thing) I cant seem to figure out how to run the damn thing? If only we had a code of practice that clearly indicated the app developer must comply to both GNOME, KDE, etc. standards for desktop shortcuts then users will be more inclined to shift to Linux.

I don't think its a lack of compatible applications, but rather the process of getting it up and running. I appreciate how all the new distro's like Ubuntu and SUSE let you simply search and install via a install tool such as Synaptec or YAST2, but don't just stop there. Allow newbies the ability to find their own random application from some opensource monkey site and enable them to install that application and get it up and running like all the experts do.

I agree that there are people out there who have been scared off by small narrow minded people (I know because I used to be one - not narrow minded, but scared) that Linux is a death trap that is all CLI based and its pathetic attempt to form this Xwindows thing is just a cheap shot at a dream of becoming Windows. Well to those people I can only say Windows was once a cheap shot at dreaming of becoming Apple OS but look at it today. Similarly I think all the recent improvements in the past few years on the Linux front will payoff in the long run if we keep the dream alive and continue to progress forward. Continue to develop apps and operating environments with both the new and old (technology based) in mind. Just because it works doesn't mean its ready, remember that the test practice should include the same demographic as the more heavily used systems conduct (yes I refer to Microsoft and to a greater extent Mac who are renowned for this practice).
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RE: Microsoft bashing

Postby ollie » Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:30 am

Just a quick comment - SUSE Linux is actually one of the older distros around. Simple desktops are available in many forms, using different versions of windows managers, high speed simplistic desktops are easy to create.

Microsoft have just proven that high rates of piracy leads to cheaper software - MS plans cheap Windows.

Does this mean that if we increase piracy rates to over 70% then Microsoft will reduce prices for all of us?

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RE: Microsoft bashing

Postby alloydog » Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:49 am

Basically that shows that the products are priced on what they think people will can afford, and not what the product is actually worth!

Interesting link the Microsoft and piracy: Many, many moons ago, back when Windows 95 was cutting edge...
I friend told me that the reason Windows was so wide spread was because it was so easy to copy and bypass the license numbers. He reckoned Microsoft could have easily made it nigh on impossible to crack, or at least too difficult for the average home user to get around. But, with everyone copying Windows left right and centre, coupled with the apparent anti-competative practices, it became the most common OS. I cannot even remember any attempt at security on Windows 3.1.

But also back then, I guess there not really any true competition, Unix was a very expensive network OS and Linux was what, half a kernel at 0.1 alpha.
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Postby shifty_ben » Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:36 pm

I find as a newbie that the hardest part about installing some applications I find off the web (RPM's mostly) is after installing it (which I get happy about everytime I successfully install any app in Linux - its a newbie thing) I cant seem to figure out how to run the damn thing?

I hear what you are saying on this point, although many of the applications installed by RPM, if you restart X then the application will often appear in your KDE/Gnome menu, having said that sadly not all do, I ams till ahving problems finding the appropriate binary for Mozilla Composerm and so am having to run Mozilla and then open the composer. I have been using Linux for several years now, and still cant seem to locate the binary I need, it is a definite issue but having said that for all applications to be able to do something like this can be hard because of the variety of different window managers available, if you find a RPM for your distro then there is generally no issue, however a generic RPM will not normally install the shortcuts. This is one of the reasons I love Gentoo so much, just running emerge is so simple and you get a build designed for Gentoo.

I think the page about Piracy and M$ lowering prices is definitely interesting, theys eem to be rewarding Piracy ratehr than preventing it, Im not sure why they have put prices up, perhaps because they ned to pay more people to come up with more annoying office assistants? I know many people would rather go without them at all, especially if it led to lower prices!
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Postby jjmac » Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:19 am

Sue MS -=
- hmmm (grin) ...
and, like,
just how many shares do the mob have in such <coff> enterprises </coff> anyway ,,,

It's a bit like the spam problem in a way ... there is __no___ legal structure -=- as as can be seen ...

ummm, is the free market capable or self regulation.
ummm, do oil consortiums actually govern internationional politics, or was the the old drunk dossed up in the doorwell just crazy after all ...

... dangerous teritorty though -=- no doubts there at all-=-

one certaintly would not be wanting a cruse targeted at their window (and then missing by 30 yards :roll: ), because my neighbours are just, so nice :)

But some sought of inet structure is needed , hmmmm, just random wondering i suppose ...

is it , well ,, mabe, ... just the beging of something larger , , ,
like. 2005 will be the loss, and 3005 may be .... hopefull e


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But it's ok, 'cause i've got a spare ...
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