Debian dumped.

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Debian dumped.

Postby Bazza » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:47 am

Linux Mint 17 64 bit in its place.
<rant>
No wireless. :o/
Crappy video resolution. :o/
Took me a short while to realise that the proprietary drivers are there but disabled.
Enable both and all works as it should.

This is just one reason why people I know won't switch to Linux.
All they want to do is switch on and go or install, switch on and go, no messing around.
</rant>

It is now set up as I require and it found a major bug in AudioScope.sh...
Cured and a new version will be released soon.

(LBNL, AudioScope.sh now has 6 capture modes, ALSA's arecord is finally taken care of.)

CYA...
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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby guy » Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:08 am

OTOH that is one reason I stick with debian.

I know that next system upgrade I won't be stuck with reliance on some proprietary gimmick that has been consigned to the scrapheap by a profiteering manufacturer.

Just imagine if XFree86 or Gnome2 had been "proprietary drivers"!
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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby Bazza » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:05 pm

guy wrote:OTOH that is one reason I stick with debian.


Well Linux on the desktop is never going to grow much if the distros disable _important_ items that Joe Public wants and uses.
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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby nelz » Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:18 pm

Not every distro is aimed as new users. Debian provides what its users want.
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." (Albert Einstein)
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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby Dutch_Master » Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:13 am

nelz wrote:Not every distro is aimed as new users. Debian provides what its users want.

No it doesn't! I don't want the crap that is Gnome3, GDM3 and SystemD, yet if I upgrade my Squeeze system, that's exactly what they ram down users throats :roll: I want Iceape, or a similar Gecko-based internet suite, not like 4 separate programs. And Mate is Mate, not Gnome2 :roll:

So no, Debian has long since stopped giving users what they want :roll: :evil:
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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby Bazza » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:01 am

Hi nelz and DM...

I really don't care what interface is thrust upon me, all I ask is that it works.

Sadly Mint and others don't!
This is a real deal to expect Joe Public, who knows nothing about Linux to switch, when Apple or Microsoft come preinstalled and works out of the box.
The vast majority of the public are NOT geeks like us but USERS and the sooner these distro developers realise the fact the better.

The bizarre thing is my PCLinuxOS 2009 install to my USB stick DID install the proprietary drivers for video and wireless. <shrugs>
If it could do it in 2009 why does it NOT do it now?

(Don't tell me, legal requirements.)
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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby nelz » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:50 am

Wow! Does Debian really not give a choice of DE or browser these days? :P
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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby nelz » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:54 am

Bazza wrote:The bizarre thing is my PCLinuxOS 2009 install to my USB stick DID install the proprietary drivers for video and wireless. <shrugs>
If it could do it in 2009 why does it NOT do it now?

(Don't tell me, legal requirements.)


There are 3 reasons for not using proprietary drivers:

1) Fear of legal action
2) Ethical objection to them
3) Availability of reasonable open source alternatives

Various distros can follow one or none of these. Since 2009 the availability of open source drivers has improved massively so I no longer go through the hassle of using proprietary drivers that may or not work after the next kernel update.
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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby guy » Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:52 am

Dutch_Master wrote:
nelz wrote:Not every distro is aimed as new users. Debian provides what its users want.

No it doesn't! I don't want the crap that is Gnome3, GDM3 and SystemD, yet if I upgrade my Squeeze system, that's exactly what they ram down users throats :roll: I want Iceape, or a similar Gecko-based internet suite, not like 4 separate programs. And Mate is Mate, not Gnome2 :roll:

So no, Debian has long since stopped giving users what they want :roll: :evil:


I think the truth lies somewhere in between. Debian gives us what its developer-users want. And what any bunch of developers want can only ever match the wants of a minority of computer users.

Debian's masterstroke is to provide a reliable and universal platform that you can customise to your tastes, should you care to. Consequently, it underpins many of the more popular distros, such as Ubuntu and hence Mint, who try to add that "what the users want" gloss. Some are more successful than others. In my experience they always sacrifice some stability and consistency, hence my preference to stick with vanilla debian.

Sometimes the world is not perfect and debian has to make a hard choice to move forward with a nascent future or stick with a smelly old past. Hence the odd wobble over Nvidia drivers or Gnome2 vs 3 where, IMHO they jumped a little too soon, giving in to what the powerful downstream distros thought they wanted, before it was ready for prime time

There are many Buddhist sects in different monasteries and a monk may, if it suits his personal development, periodically move from one to another. Even a badly-run and corrupt monastery has lessons for ears attuned to them. Occasionally a sect goes so far astray it eventually either dies out or reforms itself (as when the present Dalai Lama banned tantric sex), but other than that, none is more right or wrong than the others, they are just more or less useful to you at the time. A monk who moves is not changing his religious adherence, rather he is changing his approach to himself. One may take a similar view of Linux distros.

There's a mantra hanging around here somehere .... ah, here it is: Enjoy the choice.
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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby Ram » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:28 pm

Though I don't see this on their current web site, wasn't there some up raw a few years back that Debian were stopping delivering / enabling proprietary software so you got a truly free OS.

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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby Bazza » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:19 pm

nelz wrote:3) Availability of reasonable open source alternatives.

Then why did Mint ignore these wondrous alternatives?
Why, it they are available, do some distros NOT install them?
And, if the user knows of or wants proprietary alternatives THEN they can learn how to do it.
At least they will be able to use the "latest and greatest" from the getgo!
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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby nelz » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:13 pm

I can't answer that because I don't know what hardware you were trying to use, but it's been a long time since I've found hardware more than six months old that didn't just work with Ubuntu.

Debian is not trying to be a distro for Joe Public.
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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby guy » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:42 pm

Ram wrote:Though I don't see this on their current web site, wasn't there some up raw a few years back that Debian were stopping delivering / enabling proprietary software so you got a truly free OS.


Yes, ISTR that was around the time the nVidia wobble occurred and Linus famously swore at nVidia in public.

Last I looked, Debian offered the choice of two different download repos - one totally free and the other with proprietary Linux drivers that still did a better job.
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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby wyliecoyoteuk » Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:58 pm

Re: people not switching....
Surprisingly, I seem to remember that on windows you have to install drivers....for just about any piece of hardware that you plug in.
And strangely enough, almost certainly for graphics cards and wireless cards...see a pattern here?
A vanilla windows install can be stuck at 640x480, and I have had to use a Linux pc to download drivers for network cards on a windowsPC in the last month, before I could connect to windows update... so what is your point exactly?
Many wireless cards also have region specific firmware that is barred from redistribution by the manufacturer, so you need a wired connection to download it.

Of course, many people don't ever install Windows, it is already on their computer, so they are blissfully unaware of the problems that can arise when installing ANY OS.
And what you can do when the windows driver doesn't work... well you can try and choose a different driver...good luck with that.

I just spent an afternoon trying to program a USB proximity card reader. I had to reboot and disable driver signing to get it to work, because windows refuses to install the correct driver.
Then I had to do it again for the next one, because it sees it as a different device..
I have twelve of these to reprogram (sigh)
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Re: Debian dumped.

Postby oldpenguin » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:24 pm

Gee, never noticed those neat drivers were present to install.
Never needed them... Debian is fine to me. Maybe a techie
can reinstall Windows version bla-bla for you.

Don't be offended! I got my Debian putdown from a windows
fanatic who felt Linux was some sort of toy. He had no idea
what Linux even is.

It would give Windows/Mac a good run if there were some
decent advertising for the public good for Linux.
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