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Athlon 64bit and MB Ram issues

 
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: Athlon 64bit and MB Ram issues Reply with quote

Howdy All,

seems the site dosen't have a 'Hardware' forum, so i will have to post here.

I'm finally puting a new box together A Cooler Master Praetorian PAC T01-E (not their latest) with an Antec-480W PSU. Along with some periferal Cooler Master fan/temp control/sensing additions.

I walked into a shop in the city today to enquire about AthlonXPs' and Giga byte boards, along with 1gb Kingston ram.

A got a bit of a chastising from the attendant (grin). He suggested, though didn't state directly, that i would have to be a 'half wit' to build something like that. What he called using "dinosaur" technology Smile

Hey, he's probably right, as i haven't really had much to do with box builds and hw in general. Though i have enquired here a few times on basically the same theme. It's a pity the old data base isn't available.

So, he got me thinking ... for a few hundred dollars more ... it does make dense.

So now i'm thinking of a 64 bit Athlon and an Asus board with possibly a Giel or Cosair 1gb ram module.

A few confusions have cropped up.

On the spec page for the ...

"asus A8V Delux"

it states ...

===========================
Storage South Bridge
- 2 x UltraDMA 133/100/66/33
- 2 x Serial ATA, support RAID 0, RAID 1, and JBOD
Promise 20378 RAID controller
- 1 x UltraDMA 133/100/66/33
- 2 x Serial ATA
- Support RAID 0, RAID 1, RAID 0+1, and Multiple RAID
==========================

Does the seconf reference to UltrDMA 133/100/88/33 refer to the RAI Controller mentioned above it ?
And the first is just the standard ide controller. Which mean it has two different disk ide facilities. I guess it does but i'm not to clear there.

and for the

Delux WiFi

===========================
Storage South Bridge
-2 x ATA133
-2 x SATA, RAID0, RAID1
Promise R20378 RAID controller
-1xUltraDMA133 supports two hard drives
-2xSerial ATA
-RAID0, RAID1, RAID 0+1
============================

Again, i guess it's similar to the first one. That is, the second ide references are for the RAID controller. If not, whats the difference between 2 X ATA 133 and 1XUltraDMA 133

Are they saying there that the standard ide controller dosen't support DMA, it must if it's ATA 133.

I'm a little unclear on that.

The bloke wasn't very impressed with my idea for "Kingston" ram either. He suggested that they were ok a few years ago but therv'e dropped back on the quality of materials they use and now just trade on their name ???

What do folks think on that, and what might be your thoughts on Cosair and Geil modules.

Strangely, Kingston is the only site iv'e found that has a compatability list for different Mobo chipsets. At least, on Cosairs site i couldn't find anything. And on Giels' it was even worse.

Another thing, when it comes to 64 bit Athlons ... what kind of cooling strategy have people been using. In the kind of fans used.

The actual price difference for all of this compared to my original dinosaur plane, only amounts to a few hunfred dollars extra. Except for the ram. There is a big jump in price on the Geil and Cosair, compared to the Kingston. But, i can delay a little longer if needed.

Any ideas people may have on this would be much apprieciated Smile


jm
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jjmac
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:32 am
Posts: 1996
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:14 pm    Post subject: RE: Athlon 64bit and MB Ram issues Reply with quote

Howdy,


Completely edited this post as it seemed a bit vague. And as i accidently posted in a "new window" i lost my login with the result that the above went in as "Guest". So i can't really edit it.

When i eventually figured out that "mobile" is the "hardware" board, i though it should probably be there.


Questions:

Cooling issues with Athlon 64 bit processors.
What fans are people using. Have problems occurred there. How does the default box fan perform. Is cooling any more of an issue compared to the 32 bit Athlons.


Asus boards: asus A8V Delux

===========================
Storage South Bridge
- 2 x UltraDMA 133/100/66/33
- 2 x Serial ATA, support RAID 0, RAID 1, and JBOD
Promise 20378 RAID controller
- 1 x UltraDMA 133/100/66/33
- 2 x Serial ATA
- Support RAID 0, RAID 1, RAID 0+1, and Multiple RAID
==========================


The references to UltraDMA ide ports. One is the standard 2 channel dual port while the later is specific to the RAID controller. I guess thats self evident.

RAM:

I was thinking of "Kingston" but the shop person i spoke to wasn't impressed. As far as he was concerned Giel was the only one to consider. A bit expensive for me though.

I have been looking at Cosair, but haven't been able to get any compatibility references for either it or Giel against Mobo chipsets/brands. Kingston does have listing.

It's been on the cards for a while now and finally got around to the update box build. First time. Went for a Praetorian tower and an Antec 480W PSU. I was going to get a Athlon 3200 with a giga byte 7VT600F chipset, but this shop person thought it was a bit brain dead to go for, in their words, "dinosaur" technology.

The price increase is only a few hundred dollars, or three weeks, and the logic makes sense.

Any thoughts on the processor Mobo and ram concerns would be muxh apprieciated. Especially cooling. Smile

Pity the old data base isnt available as there would be a lot of good searchable info there on this.

TIA

jm
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Rhakios
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Location: Midlands, UK

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:35 pm    Post subject: RE: Athlon 64bit and MB Ram issues Reply with quote

My only thought on cooling is that I haven't found it to be a problem. I have an Athlon 64 3200+ processor with a copper thermaltake cooler (nothing fancy). It only gets as high as 57C when it's running CPDN, most of the time it hovers around 42C. I have got a roomy well-ventilated case though.
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nordle
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:56 pm
Posts: 1500

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:50 pm    Post subject: RE: Athlon 64bit and MB Ram issues Reply with quote

Athlon64's have two pin grid layouts, 754 and 939. You pay a slight premium for 939, but you get more of an upgrade path (to some, including me, upgrade paths are a little pointless and are really just marketing jargen to make you fell less bad about spending $1000 now as you think it will be upgradeable in two years time, when realistically the game has moved on and it makes more sense to start from scratch on the cpu and mobo front), also with the 939 you get dual channel memory capability, ie 3-5% speed increase in memory if you use two matched pairs of RAM.

I've got an Asus K8VSE (754), yes the extra ATA is for RAID, UDMA133 and ATA133 are the same thing, a lthough ATA133 is not an official standard and most drives wont get near that. You might probably want to stick to SATA, especially the seagate 7200.8 which have got great reviews for speed, quietness and cool running.

My 754 with Athlon64-3200 have been totally solid, really reliable, using a dial adjustable thermaltake cooler and full tower case with a couple of silent 80mm fans and one silent 120mm fan. CPU, after 3 hours reads 38c, under load it reaches around 43c at the most. Fan is near silent at 2,700rpm too.
My 64-3200 is much cooler running than either my XP1600 or XP1900's.

I can happily recommend the asus 754 platform (the X version of the board is the current one), but If you dont mind spending the extra, then 939 is probably the better bet. RAM wise, I've had no problems with OCZ, Corsair, Kingston, Samsung or Crucial, I favour crucial but thats probably becuase I don't bother overclocking any more and prefer the value and stability combo. But again, if you can stretch to a 939 based system, then paired corsair is nice.

I've always stuck with VIA because of solid linux drivers. Nforce have been a little shaky in the past, but that was around nforce-2, and now nforce-4 is out and apparently is very very good, so its something that needs to be looked into, otherwise you could do alot worse with:

Abit Fatal1ty AN8 SKT939 130
Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 15
AMD (Winchester) Athlon 64bit 3500 180
OCZ EL Dual Channel Kit 2x512MB DDR400 PC3200 CL 2-3-2-6 130
Leadtek Winfast Geforce 6600 Gt128mb Ddr3 140
Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 250gb, Sata 3.5lp 8ms 7200rpm 8mb 100
695

A roughly similar system based on socket 754 costs much less, but is slower (15%), less upgradeable, less tunable, depends whats more important:

Asus K8V-X Socket-754 VIA K8T800 ATX 50
Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 15
AMD (Newcastle) Athlon 64bit 3400+ 754pin 512kb 145
Corsair (VS1GBKIT400C3) 1024MB (2 x 512MB Matched Pair Value Range) 70
Leadtek Winfast Geforce 6600 Gt128mb Ddr3 140
Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 250gb, Sata 3.5lp 8ms 7200rpm 8mb 100
520
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jjmac
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:32 am
Posts: 1996
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:42 am    Post subject: RE: Athlon 64bit and MB Ram issues Reply with quote

Yes, thanks both for that, it's quite helpfull.


It's cleared up some of my concerns on heating, and reinforces, my somewhat unimpressed sales person friends suggestion. It's refreshing to find a sales person whose prepared to speak straight, about how brain dead my plan was, rather than just go along with it for the sale too Very Happy



>>
.. if you use two matched pairs of RAM.
.
.
.
... then paired corsair is nice ...
>>

I don't think i really understand how the dual channel actually works with the 939. I have notice a lot of references to 'dual channel' ram ads lately though. And my unimpressed sales person friend (grin), did refer to dual modules. More to just gauge my reaction i think. His suspicions were confirmed Smile.


It looks like there are some significant price differences between the uk and au. Your disks and ram prices are much lower, but boards and processors seem quite comparable. Arctic Freeze is much cheaper here though Rolling Eyes There's the power of populations and markets for you.Smile


But as it only means i'll have to wait 3 weeks to get the extra cash, i'll go for the 939/Asus/Geil or Cosair. I'd love to get a Geil, if i can swing it. It will give me time to think on a maintenance strategy for the box more fully. I'm in a dusty environment, with very little control over that element. I must have easy, regular access to the fans. Which the Praetorian seems to stupidly denige. But thats been now figured. The next model up does provide a hinged grill, providing fan access. The PAC T01-E1 ineeds the front control panel removed, which uses these sexadecimal screw heads to attach to the box frame. The worst ind of screw head for actually removing and then reapplying regularly. Otherwise it'is a nicely layed out box.


I think i'd be reluctant to buy from Cooler Master again though. They are nice on a design level, but ... they seem to fall over on certain functional aspects.



Jet 7 fan, Socket A:

Nice, turbo blades make a lot of sense, kills the blind spot in front of the central hub, very good for close range targets like cpu's. The fan head swivels so it can avoid low pressure areas, due to cross streams (another good idea). Apparently there is a 'shim' available that allows it to be used with a 939 socket, ha, i bought one, then changed my socket choice. It looks nice. Why ... do they drop it's through put down from a standard 80x80 central hubs 35-38 cfm standard to 22 cfm for the Jet ?!!.. Thats around 30% !. Can't see the sense there, unless it's a costs shave.



Aerogate II temp/rpm fan controller:

Again looks nice and is functional ... except for two things.
They promote it as a four fan temp/rpm controller. But ... one of those fans is a 40cm fan, built in to the unit. Which is also "impossible to remove" for cleaning. The screw that fixes the grill, overlaps the screw that fixes the fan. And there is no room to accommodate the fan screws length if it could be extracted. So, if it clags up ... hows that for a bit of blatant obsolescence. It's the kind of thing that gets to me, concerning the integrity of these companies. An otherwise attractive, functional device, stuffed up by one element.


I was originally going to go for Thermalake, but i couldn't stand the look of their box. The flaming red front panel made me feel off, and it seemed generally to be disorded. But i will be going for their internal stuff. Cooler Master are obviously playing subtle games with their product, worse luck, cause, they do have some good ideas.

Any way, thanks again, a 939 it is Smile



jm
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jjmac
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:32 am
Posts: 1996
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 1:00 pm    Post subject: RE: Athlon 64bit and MB Ram issues Reply with quote

nordle,

Howdy heathers, i was just looking at some posts in the website forum and noticed your ...

>>
psssst... zarathustra, it is I heathers,
>>

(grin)

I had been wondering where you were at as well, but just re-reading the above, it does sound very much like yourself. So should have guessed


Iv'e changed my mind on Thermaltake boxs recently tool. I stumbled into a shop in town which had some really nice looking cases on display, very elaborate. No price tags which i usually read as being pricey(grin), but they were certainly all set up to go, And some nice looking CoolerMaster things as well.

They also had some really good stuff from a company called 'arctic-cooling' which will need some looking into eventually as well.

Took your advice on the 939, you guys certainly have good prices on you computer gear Smile comes with the population i guess

So ... just howdy ..., good to see your still around Smile


jm

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