Digital Rights management

Discussion topics, Linux related - not requests for help

Moderators: ChrisThornett, LXF moderators

Digital Rights management

Postby youlikeicecream » Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:15 pm

Hi, there has been a lot of hype recently about DRM (digital rights management). What I dont understand is why they bother ... someone will just hack and expose this and leave them back at square one, out of pocket from funding expensive encryption research.

I am familiar with the principal that based on the given rights a file can be played x times copied x times and so on.... but what if the player just ignores the watermarks? or is the watermark reading built-in at codec level, if so why not just implement a version that bypasses the protocol entirely. an example would be Transparent DVD access with an underlying layer encrypted with CSS. DVD region free can sort this out, so I am sure something can be done to ignore or make transparent the DRM layer ?

Anyone have any thoughts on the subject ?
youlikeicecream
LXF regular
 
Posts: 721
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:40 am
Location: Oxford

RE: Digital Rights management

Postby hairymunky » Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:43 pm

Didn't DVD Jon (deCSS fame) and co. create a itunes thingy for Linux (think it was in last months LF). Im sure that removed the DRM stuff as well, so the music file was just like any other mp3 etc.

I personally think companies are wasting their time trying to lock/control copyrighted material, because as soon as its out, its a challenge to unlock/crack it first. Im lead to believe the competition is fierce to be the first to crack any new copy protection system.
maybe they should make media that is not readable by any computer, then it may be easier to control!

Any anyway, it would be like spending £20 on a good DVD, just to find out you can only watch it 3 times before it blows up :)
If I buy something I want to be able to listen/watch it as much as I want and not be told by the manufacturer how much I get to watch it :(
Linux powered Astronomy
User avatar
hairymunky
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:50 pm

RE: Digital Rights management

Postby guy » Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:23 pm

One point of view is that yes, protection systems will always be broken, but just making it hard for the unauthorised copyist has its effect.
It buys time - time to roll in the mazookas, and time to develop the next-generation obstacle.
And most dummies will never learn to visit www.hack-my-stuff.com (no that's not a real link, folks. Stupid software) because it's that tiny bit harder than clicking Pay Now.

How and when one can ethically apply that principle is of course open to discussion.
Cheers,
Guy
The eternal help vampire
User avatar
guy
LXF regular
 
Posts: 1078
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:07 pm
Location: Worcestershire

RE: Digital Rights management

Postby youlikeicecream » Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:41 pm

thats just it hairymonkey its a competetive race in a way to preserve a basic freedom of choice in a way ... we watch a movie at a friends house or whatever, but then we choose to buy it because we thought that it was worth owing ... but then I found my computer couldn't play it because its encrypted or protected in some way . I bought a copy of Need for speed undergroud 2 for the PC ... my computer Should have no problem playing it. I installed it, and when i went to play it, i got the message "Please Insert The Original CD-ROM!" and then exited. Needless to say, I was stumped. Contacted EA Games and after many barrages of emails with them We found out the problems ..

1. Clone CD / Clone DVD2 / Virtual CLoneDrive software was installed.
2. I had a DVD-RW / DVD-RAM Drive and a nVidia Chipset. Not sure why that should matter
3. I had to change the Transfer methods of All my IDE channels to 'PIO Only' Mode (made windows Very unstable)
4. I had to install a 52x cd-rom drive to install and run in on because my DVD-RW was incompatible!!

all as a result of copy protection on a game that I actually bought!

but eventually i got to play it
youlikeicecream
LXF regular
 
Posts: 721
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:40 am
Location: Oxford

Postby 1slipperyfish » Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:08 pm

i am against drm it's like e-books compared to real books i may not read it for eight months but i have paid for it :? with drm i would have to read it in two months before it became invalid :?
there will always be a way to hack but they affect the average user rather than the person who is turning out 2000 copies a week to sell at the car boot :roll:
the only thing to do is birch the enforcers thus preserve our rights to hack where we like
paul
i am a follower of the culture

Image
User avatar
1slipperyfish
Forum Jester
 
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 2:52 pm
Location: wigan

Postby youlikeicecream » Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:18 pm

I agree, the end-user is a bit herded unless they buy and install some commercial software such as DVD-Region free or similiar. Just another cost to the equation of watchingmovies/playingmusic/games/makingmusic/games/movies/thelistgoes on.

:)
youlikeicecream
LXF regular
 
Posts: 721
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:40 am
Location: Oxford

Postby 1slipperyfish » Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:33 pm

yes but watching movies/playing games doesn't have a time limit/number of watches/plays as drm is supposed to enforce
paul
i am a follower of the culture

Image
User avatar
1slipperyfish
Forum Jester
 
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 2:52 pm
Location: wigan

Postby M0PHP » Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:08 pm

eBooks. Thats the worst medium to apply DRM to (in the consumer's eyes). Say I'm a student and I have two options for Topic A, and want to buy JOe Bloggs' Definitve Guide to Topic A:

1) Pay £15 for the paper-back book. With this, I can read it as many times as I wish. I can write on it if I so wish to make notes and indicates points of interest for a later date. Hey, I could even photocopy a page or two to give to my poorer friend or to read later when I don't need to carry around a tome with me.

2) Pay £15 for the eBook. I can now read it until my licence expires, afterwards having to empty my pocket again. I can't write (digitally) on it because oh no, that would be against the licence and/or copyright of the publisher. Can I make a copy of it to put on my laptop or PDA for when I go out? No chance.

:evil:

On a similar note, we have 2x DVD players in the living room. One is a cheap PROline thing that we bought for £49 in a well-known supermarket. The other is Samsung, and was included in the entertainment thing we got (Wide TV, DVD, cabinet, 5.1 sound, amplifier and so on) which cost altogether over £500. The PROline will play just about anything I throw at it - (S)VCD and DVDs - even my backups. Even those DVDs that the so-called "copy protection" on - not a problem. However, take (for example) my Creature Comforts DVD. Stick it in the Samsung player and there is no way it will get past the first menu. PROline plays it fine. And this is the case for the majority of DVDs we've bought as well, useless.

On the subject of DVDs - the widely mis-used (by the DVD producers) is that they dictate when and where we can use our fast-forward and/or skip buttons. The function isn't used properly (it wouldn't be so bad if it was) but it's used to make us sit through adverts at the beginning!! As if we hadn't paid £7 to see the film at the cinema (with 30mins trailer first), we now pay for adverts included in our DVDs!

Sorry, got fustrated there :evil: :x

This "intellectual property" rights and stuff has a lot to answer for :?
User avatar
M0PHP
LXF regular
 
Posts: 737
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:40 am
Location: Bishop Auckland, County Durham, UK

Postby 1slipperyfish » Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:18 pm

ah but if you (i am not endorsing it ) used dvd shrink you could remove the adverts/encoding and watch it free from any censorship
paul
i am a follower of the culture

Image
User avatar
1slipperyfish
Forum Jester
 
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 2:52 pm
Location: wigan

Postby Flea » Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:04 am

M0PHP wrote:bought for £49 in a well-known supermarket


You know what confuses me even more than DRM? Its when people say stuff like that, why not just say "I bought it at ASDA" or "I bought it at Tesco" or wherever you got it from? :roll:
User avatar
Flea
LXF regular
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:03 pm
Location: Ferryhill, Co. Durham

Postby nelz » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:05 am

Maybe he doesn't want to admit to shopping at Aldi or Netto ;-)

Anyway, I thought Proline was Comet's own brand.
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." (Albert Einstein)
User avatar
nelz
Site admin
 
Posts: 8501
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:52 am
Location: Warrington, UK

Postby M0PHP » Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:06 pm

Might have been, I can't actually remember now :oops: :?
User avatar
M0PHP
LXF regular
 
Posts: 737
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:40 am
Location: Bishop Auckland, County Durham, UK

Postby hairymunky » Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:15 pm

... and the "el cheapo" dvd players play any region dvd's! I thought all this region crap was meant to stop dvds coming from other parts of the world....
Canny beat a £29 player from ASA :)
Ive bought (legal) dvds from play.com that were region 1 (USA) and they play fine in my DVD player, and cost me a lot less than the region 2 version.

I think at the end of the day, it's just a ploy for the fat-cat rich companies to extort more dosh out of us hard working folks. I really hope it all goes pear shaped and turns and bytes them on the ar*e!

Another thing... whats the difference between borrowing a friends DVD to watch, or downloading a movie illegally (not that I do it or agree)...? I can't see any difference, maybe we'll have anti-piracy people arresting us for bowrrowing a film... hmmmmm shouldn't give them any ideas!!!
Linux powered Astronomy
User avatar
hairymunky
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:50 pm

Postby youlikeicecream » Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:21 pm

MOPHP, i feel the same, its a ridiculous world. as Bill Hicks said, "You pay, you get ripped off, Free you get it all", I bought a Multi Region all-format reading DVD Player for £29 and it does the lot, but i have seen so many expensive ones that dont play hardly anything.

DVD-region free for pc and anydvd for pc get rid of the "user-prohibitons" on dvds. would be nice to see something like that for linux. libdvdcss is great and quite necissary.

its funny hairy monkey .. have you read the legal blurb at the beginning of most movies, where it says "not for public viewing ... lending, etc" that means that if you go to your friends house ... watch his film on his tv with a couple of other friends; Thats breaking the terms of the DVD !!! ridiculous.
this concept of software licensing is best seen in pc networks games .. each person has a pc and a copy of a game each.. plenty of revenue (1:1) whereas in the games console market, it is possible to have , say 4 players playing on 1 console with 1 copy of a game.

Mike :)
youlikeicecream
LXF regular
 
Posts: 721
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:40 am
Location: Oxford

Postby Nigel » Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:17 pm

youlikeicecream wrote:this concept of software licensing is best seen in pc networks games .. each person has a pc and a copy of a game each.. plenty of revenue (1:1) whereas in the games console market, it is possible to have , say 4 players playing on 1 console with 1 copy of a game.


The original Age of Empires would allow you to play multiplayer games with one CD for every 5 players. You do a full install on each PC, the one with the CD starts the network game and the others join in. We still occasionally have family AoE wars on wet bank holidays - it's great fun.
When Age of Empires 2 came out we were very disappointed to find they'd gone back to requiring each user to have their own CD.
Microsoft got a lot of things right with the first version of AoE. Pity they didn't keep it up.
Hope this helps,

Nigel.
User avatar
Nigel
LXF regular
 
Posts: 1141
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Gloucestershire, UK

Next

Return to Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest