I'm dropping SUSE

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I'm dropping SUSE

Postby Nuke » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:56 am

The article about the SUSE - Microsoft Deal in LXF 150 made me look deeper eg http://techrights.org/2011/08/11/boycotting-suse/ and I am very disappointed.

I had been using SUSE happily for about a year because it is said to have the best implementation of KDE. I was aware of the Novell-MS deal, and that Novell were sponsors of SUSE, but I had not realised there was a direct agreement between SUSE and MS.

Microsoft are rogues. So SUSE is finished for me, a pity :(

I think I shall try Mageia. I've just tried the Live DVD (with LXF148) - pity the 64-bit version is not on the DVD. Firefox crashed but I guess that is just a live DVD problem.

I will have come full circle - started with Mandrake 10(?) years ago, and have also been through Debian (too excruciatingly FSF-ly correct) and Kubuntu (that lot seem to have gone barmy lately) in the meantime.
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Postby johnhudson » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:35 pm

I think you are confused; SUSE ships with Gnome, not with KDE.

If you are using KDE, then you are using openSUSE which is the community distribution which has nothing to do with the Microsoft-SUSE deal (and never has).

The Microsoft-SUSE deal has been running for several years and relates to Microsoft paying the support costs of its customers who want to use SUSE alongside Windows. What you have read about is simply the most recent renewal of the deal.

Are you going to refuse to use Linux Kernel 3.0 because Microsoft was one of the biggest contibutors of new lines to it?
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Postby heiowge » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:47 pm

Touché! :lol:
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Postby RedWillow » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:16 pm

Many people think Apple to be far more roguish than Microsoft. Apple own CUPS. Linky. And they certainly don't contribute to the Linux kernel.

Are you going to refuse to print anything from Linux?
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Postby heiowge » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:33 pm

I can't anyway. My wife has monopoly on our printer via her (get your bloody hands off my) windows PC. :roll:
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Postby Ram » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:05 pm

heiowge wrote:I can't anyway. My wife has monopoly on our printer via her (get your bloody hands off my) windows PC. :roll:


Thought it was GRUB-by hands off :D

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Wow, a Linux-MS-Apple Debate

Postby Nuke » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:01 pm

johnhudson wrote:I think you are confused; SUSE ships with Gnome, not with KDE.

If you are using KDE, then you are using openSUSE which is the community distribution which has nothing to do with the Microsoft-SUSE deal (and never has).


Er, yes, it is OpenSUSE which I guessed was connected with [Non-open]SUSE. If not, funny they have such similar names. However, seriously, thanks for highlighting the distiction and I think I shall do a bit more research as to the nature of the connection.

johnhudson wrote:The Microsoft-SUSE deal has been running for several years .... What you have read about is simply the most recent renewal of the deal.


I thought the previous agreement was MS-Novell, Novell having a base of former Netware customers, and that they would co-operate in supporting customers who wanted mixed Windows-Linux networks. In this Novell would use SUSE for the Linux side, at which time they began to sponsor SUSE. I did not have an issue with that. I did not know there was a direct MS-SUSE agreement before, and I had the impression (from the Techrights article linked in my first post) that the new deal put SUSE closer to MS, wheras before Novell was a buffer between them.

johnhudson wrote:Are you going to refuse to use Linux Kernel 3.0 because Microsoft was one of the biggest contibutors of new lines to it?


RedWillow wrote:Many people think Apple to be far more roguish than Microsoft. Apple own CUPS.


Oh crikey, I did not want to start a discussion of why MS are rogues, let alone bring Apple into it. My post was about the position of SUSE vis-a-vis MS. I have no particular views on Apple except that their stuff looks like another case triumph of "design over function".

I did dismantle a Mac desktop once to see if I could salvage anything, even screws or connectors. Inside it was built like a cheap toy - all held together with nasty "once only" plastic barbed clips. Nothing was salvagable.

Nevertheless, I Googled for "Apple Evil" and found quite a lot, but it seemed to me that the essential difference from "MS Evil" was that if Apple are evil it seems to be confined to their own customers who have wilfully bought into their system. Apple hardly affect me at all (I was going to say not at all - but thanks for pointing out about CUPS).

MS however have very successfully extended their reach way beyond willing customers in that I have been obliged to buy their unwanted OS pre-loaded on PCs, and worst of all they corrupted many National Standards bodies to railroad their OOXML document file standard (or rather non-standard) through :

www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070 ... +committee

... and Google for it ad nauseum if you will.

Even though I am not a MS customer this seriously affects me because I want a stable ISO document file standard so that things I write now (technical documents, family history) will be readable in decades to come. I do not want a document file standard under MS control that they will ditch in a 2 or 3 years time just to get people to buy their latest version of Word.
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Postby johnhudson » Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:49 pm

Under Novell, SUSE was a division of Novell; so Novell made the agreement. When Attachment took over, it separated Novell from SUSE as part of its wider group structure. So the change from Novell to SUSE reflects the reorganisation instigated by Attachmate. The terms of the deal have not changed, just the corporate structure.

Interestingly, Attachmate dropped the part of Novell which could be most clearly seen as cosying up to Microsoft, namely the Mono project.
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Postby SpecialStuff » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:48 pm

I've been using openSUSE 11.4 with Gnome 3 since release and I would hate to move away from it because of a principle. I was a refugee from Ubuntu, which had been slowly driving me crackers for a while without me even noticing it! OpenSUSE has been an absolute revelation. Even with the new desktop environment it's been hassle free, and I haven't had to struggle with it as I had with Ubuntu for so long.

I'm aware of the politics, but fact is it works so bloody well for me. Please don't become evil, openSUSE! :D
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Postby johnhudson » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:05 pm

SpecialStuff wrote:I'm aware of the politics, but fact is it works so bloody well for me. Please don't become evil, openSUSE! :D


It never did!
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Postby Bruno » Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:54 pm

Hi SpecialStuff, welcome to the party, have a lot of fun! It's nice to have you with us on openSUSE.

Linux reminds me of a Bill Hicks joke about smoking, you find your brand (distro) after a while. Although in all fairness to other distros and proponents thereof, it's good to take a look at what others are doing now and again.
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Postby SpecialStuff » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:15 pm

Thanks for your comments. I agree that often it can take time to find your distro. The sad thing though, is that it's more likely that Ubuntu is the main experience that people will have of Linux, and they don't try anything else. So if it works, great. If it doesn't, it's Linux's fault, not Ubuntu's. You only have to glance at the testimonials section on the Ubuntu Forums to see people declaring that Ubuntu didn't work for them, so they're off back to Windows. I tend to think, what? You didn't even look at another Linux?? There are other versions you know, and though we often notice how similar they can be, they are often completely different too, so it's not like it isn't worth trying other versions.
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Postby johnhudson » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:56 pm

The second slide in http://bradlug.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Second_birthday.pdf 'The cycle of change' explains this behaviour. People often try something new and then go back to their old habits; it may take two or three attempts to get them to leave their old habits. So don't lose hope if they go back to their old ways after one attempt. There is a good chance they will have another.

Thanks to Dave Carpenter at Bradford GNU/LUG who introduced us to this idea.
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Re: I'm dropping SUSE

Postby Nerdy-ish » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:50 am

Nuke wrote:I think I shall try Mageia. I've just tried the Live DVD (with LXF148) - pity the 64-bit version is not on the DVD. Firefox crashed but I guess that is just a live DVD problem


A point worth noting, not every package that was in Mandriva 2011.0 is in Mageia 1 when they split, as I understand it, they will be put back possibly before / for Mageia 2. Two packages I have noticed missing is DenyHosts, which is useful for protecting SSH if you're running it, and Emerald (fancy window decorator).

I was a beta tester for Mageia, and run it on 32 and 64 bits, there no major problems that I've found. there are some issues with certain nVidia video cards and the community "neuveo" (sp?) driver, so you might need to check up on that.
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