Linux Format forums

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

Brian Hunter — Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:33 pm

Author: Brian Hunter

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:33 pm

I enjoy Richard Stallman because I like people who are 'out there', in terms of societal norms, but I would never send my friends his way when talking about our wonderful world of FLOSS/Open Source/Free/Libre/Anything Else You Want To Call It world.

I know Stallman is the President of the FSF, but I have no idea what that actually means. What does he do for the FSF?

I think his conviction is admirable, but his confrontational and unapologetic behaviour does rub many the wrong way. I wouldn't want to sit beside him on a long bus journey, that's for sure.

Forking the FSF to get rid of Stallman seems a shallow goal. Would working with the FSF, while denouncing Stallman's statement(s), not give you the best of both worlds?

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

guy — Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:04 pm

Author: guy

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:04 pm

M-Saunders wrote:

guy wrote:

As for the happy shiny-fashion-accessory collector

Which, actually, is the exact reason I described them as "happy".

Quote:

Dismissing all these people in one fell-swoop like as "accessory collectors" shows a vast misunderstanding of what people really want in a portable computer, and makes us look totally out-of-touch.

Well, put one way, anything I routinely carry around is an accessory. Put another, I regard my collection of bleepy things as functional accessories to a lifestyle that can in fact exist without them. Is that so harsh? If your lifestyle cannot, then fair enough - "jail" would be less apt than "drug".

That just leaves "shiny fashion". I trust you agree that Apple exert great effort in making their products shiny and fashionable.

Quote:

If we want Linux to get beyond 1-2% desktop market share, we've got to understand what people really want to do with their computers, push our strengths, and not snidely dismiss everyone as "iSheep".

You should try counting them.

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

towy71 — Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:42 am

Author: towy71

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:42 am

My sister loves her iPad because it "just works" and her grandchildren can help her use it
I have to say that I quite like it too, though I couldn't afford to buy one

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

M-Saunders — Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:17 am

Author: M-Saunders

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:17 am

guy wrote:

As for the happy shiny-fashion-accessory collector

Can we please stop calling all Apple product users such things? It doesn't help our cause. If everyone who bought them got bored of them after a day and they were all on eBay at ridiculously low prices, you'd have a point.

But I read that the iPad has the highest customer satisfaction rate of any consumer electronics device ever, and I know people who absolutely love them. They get a lot out of them. Dismissing all these people in one fell-swoop like as "accessory collectors" shows a vast misunderstanding of what people really want in a portable computer, and makes us look totally out-of-touch.

If we want Linux to get beyond 1-2% desktop market share, we've got to understand what people really want to do with their computers, push our strengths, and not snidely dismiss everyone as "iSheep".

M

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

towy71 — Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:51 pm

Author: towy71

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:51 pm

So RMS is a little crazy, I say good for him. He's a bit more militant than me but I'm glad he is there.... just don't ask him to sing

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

guy — Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:24 pm

Author: guy

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:24 pm

RMS is a geek preaching to his fellow geeks. To a developer and tech-savvy user whose code gets swallowed by the IP machine, iOS is indeed a jail. As for the happy shiny-fashion-accessory collector, well, in the eyes of many moralists these people already live in a jail of their own making. Yawn.

Think of all the other people who make moral cases for their many and varied causes. I think RMS stands up pretty well in that company.

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

Haakin — Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:15 pm

Author: Haakin

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:15 pm

Spangwiches wrote:

When he gets a column in The Sun, then we'll be getting somewhere.

Ha, ha, ha!

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

Spangwiches — Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:13 pm

Author: Spangwiches

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:13 pm

I suspect that part of the problem is it's a difficult position to present in a sound-bite.

There's articles like that, which to a large extent is going to be preaching to the converted, or at least the already-aware (being in the technology section of a significantly liberal and independent newspaper) and then there's articles which a broad cross section of the public are going to read (like the Jobs ones). The problem of saying something which is quotable enough to get included in that latter sort of article and conveys his position all without sounding obnoxious is... a tough nut to crack.

When he gets a column in The Sun, then we'll be getting somewhere.

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

Haakin — Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:59 pm

Author: Haakin

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:59 pm

The pity is that sometimes he can articulate his ideas in much better way like in these articles:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/sep/19/android-free-software-stallman?INTCMP=SRCH

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/aug/22/european-unitary-patent-software-warning

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

Spangwiches — Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:51 pm

Author: Spangwiches

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:51 pm

Quote:

Fair enough. I'm still not convinced something like that will carry much weight with people who don't know the name. But... yeah, point taken.

But, again, he's making a moral case and if he didn't say stuff like this he wouldn't get in those publications at all. As to whether the stuff he says does more harm than good... depends how you look at it. If his job is winning over users then, yeah, quite possible. If his job is keeping it real then... arguable.

But ok. I agree with the broader point: He could certainly spin/market his position better.

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

Haakin — Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:44 pm

Author: Haakin

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:44 pm

Spangwiches wrote:

I don't believe Stallman is putting anyone off - I suspect the vast majority of the sort of people you describe, those happy doing creative work on their Macs, have never heard of Stallman and would lend very little weight to anything he says. He's not the first point of contact for someone curious about FOSS, he's only really speaking to people who are already sold on the idea of FOSS in one way or another.

Richard Stallman is not a high profile person as it could be Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, but it's known enough. It isn't difficult to find references about his post in several newspapers' websites that will reach "regular" people. To name a few:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/oct/10/steve-jobs-wasnt-a-god?INTCMP=SRCH

http://www.forbes.com/sites/briancaulfield/2011/10/10/leave-it-to-richard-stallman-to-go-there/

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2011/10/steve-jobs-stallman-dissenting-view.html

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/10/11/os-x-and-ios-are-not-jails/ (This is a quite popular blog about Apple)

I think that in all cases they say that Richard Stallman was the founder of the free software movement and/or founder of the FSF. So, he is representing all of us. I know that he's speaking for himself, but as Uncle Ben said "with great power comes great responsibility".

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

Spangwiches — Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:47 pm

Author: Spangwiches

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:47 pm

Quote:

There are much more sensible ways to approach this IMO.

And there are more sensible people doing so. Lots and lots of them. But Stallman's pretty much the only one making the moral/philosophical case, and is inherently unconcerned with practicalities and is a little bit rarefied/removed.

I don't believe Stallman is putting anyone off - I suspect the vast majority of the sort of people you describe, those happy doing creative work on their Macs, have never heard of Stallman and would lend very little weight to anything he says. He's not the first point of contact for someone curious about FOSS, he's only really speaking to people who are already sold on the idea of FOSS in one way or another.

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

M-Saunders — Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:56 am

Author: M-Saunders

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:56 am

My take: to spread a message, you've got to say something that people can relate to. Stallman's remark that Jobs was a "pioneer of the computer as a jail made cool" will just put people off. If you're not particularly computer savvy, but you've bought a Mac and you're enjoying editing photos, making movies and browsing the web without hassles, you're not going to feel like your computer is a "jail".

Of course, Stallman has a valid point tucked away in there, and Apple's restrictions can be a cause for concern. I much prefer to use free software as a result, and be in total control of my machines. I explain to people the fundamental differences between the two approaches to developing software. But I'd never tell someone who feels happy and free with their creative software that they're in "jail", because they'd think I'm some weird zealot. There are much more sensible ways to approach this IMO.

M

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

guy — Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:30 pm

Author: guy

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:30 pm

Prophets seldom mince their words. I seem to recall one founder of a popular Western religion describing his fellow churchmen as a "brood of vipers".

Now I am not deifying RMS, and let us not even idolise him, lest we be astonished to find that, like the rest of us, he has feet of clay.

To leave an organisation with worthy goals and fork it, simply because you disagree with a member who is more important than you are, is childish and defeatist. What next, the Sofware Freedom Foundation, the Foundation for Free Software, the Software Foundation for Freedom and a committee chairman asking, "What has Linus Torvalds ever done for us?" No, stay in there and slug it out with RMS, you dummy.

Re: Time to fork the FSF?

johnhudson — Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:38 pm

Author: johnhudson

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:38 pm

I think the fork happened years ago when Linus decided to go down the pragmatic route.